Monday, April 30, 2012

Atomic Implosion

Here's another example of how our worst enemies (from within and without) manage to drive us to the edge and beyond. Last week singer Achinoam Nini (Noa) participated in an "alternative Memorial Day event" for Israeli and Palestinian families. This led to a call, on Facebook, for a boycott against her (as if any extreme right wingers ever went to one of her concerts or bought her records, but anyway). This in itself is not so surprising, but when a few minutes ago I had a look at her Facebook page (not the one created by the rightwing Israeli friends of the BDS movement, I am sure there you will find even filthier comments) I was still surprised by the venom and filth that I found there. It seems many Israelis and so-called friends of Israel are afraid of their own shadows. Some of us are slowly but surely becoming a threat/enemy that is far deadlier for the Jewish state than any Iranian nuclear weapon can ever be.


Shtrudel said...

This so called "alternative Memorial Day event" commemorated besides the Israeli fallen also the Arab fallen...

I see no need to commemorate those who were out to kill me and mine...

This is really no different then the commemoration of a Dutch person who volunteered to serve in the SS!... Something that you seemed to think was OTT... I think both are NUTS!...

That's not to say that everybody criticized Ms. Nini in an acceptable manner... But then again, is form really above matter?!... Of course, if Ms. Nini had been a Palestinian she would now be facing criminal charges if not extrajudicial execution so let's keep things in perspective...

Bert said...

For heaven's sake, stop drawing parallels between Palestinians (be they terrorists, or victims of Israeli violence) and Nazis. Not only are you insulting the memory of the victims of the Holocaust AND mocking the hard work and sacrifices of all those Israelis who for 64 years now have shown that 1933-45 and 1948+ (particularly 1967-now) is not the same thing, you also make live (even) easier for those who deny or trivialize the Holocaust.

Also, the "If this or that critical Israeli were a Palestinian/Iranian/Egyptian etc. etc." reasoning is one of the many weak non-arguments that so-called friends and apologists of Israel seem to be left with these days.

Finally, I doubt whether I would have attended any such shared event on or around Yom HaZikaron if I had been invited, but AN certainly had the right to do so (if we still are a democracy, that is, something that I am getting more and more doubts about), and her performing there is no justification for boycotting her. After all, boycotting her for her views and actions is "REALLY NO DIFFERENT" from boycotting Israeli products because of the settlements, is it?

Bert said...

And please, use a proper, recognizable name and/or link if you want to comment here.

Rob Fransman said...

Do yourself a favor Bert and close your side for comments. The internet gave us the possibility to interact. Unfortunately it also gave ignorant cowards the possibility to spit their venom in the dark shadow of anonymity. chnotar

Rob Fransman - Amsterdam

Shtrudel said...

To Bert, I guess that dissenting opinion is verboten around here. As for using a recognizable name, I have used this same name previously and as I have used Google's authentication you know my email address.

As for AN, I never said anything about boycotting, And, indeed, I said that some of the criticism grown her way done so in a non respectful manner.

Does any of that mean that I can't express my opinion that commemorating our enemies on the same day that I commemorate my neighbors, schoolmates and friends who have shed their blood to save us from the murderous intentions of our enemies?!...

To Rob, just I have the right to hold and express my opinion you have the right to do so. However, where did you get the notion that I'm an "ignorant coward"?!... And what's this about "spit venom"?!...

to the both of you, above the posting box it says that aggressive, insulting, personal, not to the point etc. posts will be (usually) removed. I would say that Rob's post meets at least three of those (aggressive, insulting & personal) but I guess he gets a pass because he's not a dissenter.

Shtrudel said...

Oh, and BTW, I didn't compare the Palestinians to the Nazis... The point here was that the Palestinians are our enemy and the Dutch person in question joined the enemy (of the time) of Holland. Had he joined the Imperial Japanese forces or the Italian forces the point would still have been the same. Albeit without you being able to claim a Godwin.

By joining the enemy he forfeited his right to be commemorated on the day that the Dutch commemorate this who were killed by the enemy.

IMHO commemorating my enemies on the same day that I commemorate my neighbors, schoolmates and friends who paid the ultimate price in defending me and mine from those enemies is NUTS!

You, Rob and AN have the right to think otherwise but to make me out for some lunatic because I disagree is uncalled for. In fact, I believe it's that sort of intolerance that leads to the general political intolerance that we see in Israel and elsewhere.

I'm quite happy to agree to disagree but I refuse to be cowered into not speaking my mind. Especially as I do so in a reasonable manner.

Bert said...

Dear Shtrudel,

Where does it - or do I - say that you have to agree with what I write, or that I consider you a lunatic? I just reread my reply to your comment, and can't read anywhere that I don't or wouldn't allow you or anybody else to say what you think and believe. If it becomes really aggressive, insulting, or personal etc. I might use my God-given right to remove a comment, but I haven't used that right very often so far (and never with your comments, if I am not mistaken), and don't see a reason to do it now.

What I really dislike (and absolutely disagree with) is your Nazi-Germany-related references, including the childish use of a word like 'verboten'. I have explained in several postings (and also in an article or two, either in Dutch or in English, I am not sure), why I believe that such references and parallels are wrong. 1933-1945 is not 2012, no matter how difficult today's reality is (who's to blame for that reality is a discussion that I don't want to get into here, you can guess that I don't put any exclusive blame on this or that side in 'the' conflict)

As for Rob's comment, it is rather aggressive and can be seen as insulting, but I don't think it is personal: I am sure he did not mean anyone in particular, certainly not you ;-) Besides, he uses his full name, and his comment is to the point, even though I disagree with him on this (usually he and I see eye to eye on many issues). I tend to take comments seriously and to respond to them if I have the time and the patience, and if for whatever reason I decide to ignore (or remove) them I can always do that. That is one of the advantages of having your own weblog :-)

I would be a happier person if you used a full name, especially because we have such serious disagreements. Knowing who you are 'talking' with often makes a debate less aggressive and personal. Just a nickname or an e-mail address doesn't do it for me. But again, as long as you don't get aggressive, insulting, personal, not to the point etc., simply using your nickname won't be a reason for me to remove your comments.

One last remark, about something that we definitely seem to disagree on. When you write "This is no different from....", you are absolutely drawing a direct parallel between (the) Palestinians and the SS. Also, you call "the Palestinians" "our enemies". I believe - am convinced - that only those Palestinians who are willing to use violence against us (in particular against our civilians, i.e. who support terror or are terrorists themselves) are our enemies. I want to believe that most Palestinians - like myself and most people that I know on the Israeli side of what should be a border - simply want to live in peace, quiet, and freedom, to make a decent living, and to give their children the best future that they can possibly give them. And, as you probably have understood from this and other postings, I consider our own religous-nationalist fanatics as enemies who are much more dangerous for this state (as a state, as a Jewish state, and as a more or less functioning democracy) than any Palestinian, Iranian, or other potential or real enemy.

Shtrudel said...

There is no parallel between the Palestinians/Arabs and the SS in the context that we're discussing! And that's because the point isn''t that neither of them have any affinity for Jews/Zionism but rather because they represent the enemy.

The SS represents Germany which, at the time, was the enemy of the Dutch. The Palestinians/Arabs are the enemy of Israel. That's the only parallel I'm referring to in this context.

I see absolutely no reason for the Dutch to honor Dutch people who betrayed their country by joining the German forces. And, I see absolutely no reason for Israelis to honor the Palestinian/Arab fallen. Definitely not on the same day that the Dutch?israelis honor their heroes.

I have no problem with people who think otherwise. They are free to honor whomever they want whenever they want. Except for on that particular day because if they do so on that day they are effectively spitting on the memory of those who paid the ultimate price in defending the Dutch/Israelis from their enemy.

Freedom of expression does not, IMHO, include the right to be intentionally offensive. There are ways that one can express ones opinion without being offensive.

In fact, when you're being intentionally offensive people aren't going to listen to your argument because they're going to be busy being offended.

Had those people who want to honor the enemy chosen to do so on another day I'd have had no problem with it (other then that I disagree with their POV). However, by choosing that specific day they chose, IMHO, to be offensive.

As for the "lunacy" and attempt to silence dissenting opinion, that was in reference to Rob's post.

BTW, have you seen this:

Shtrudel said...

In fact, there's more legitimate argumentation for honoring the German fallen (military as well as civilian) in Holland as since 1945 the relations have completely changed. Both countries are members of the EU, the Euro, NATO etc.

Having said that, I would wait for a few more years so as not to offend any people who actually lived back then to pass away so as not to offend them.

Of course, things (unfortunately) aren't even close to being in that stage as far as the relations between Israel and the Palestinians/Arabs.